The Terminator Files Forum

Ok, after reading many pages of differing opinions, the issue of time travel and subsequent changes is bothering me.

While there is a schism between those who believe in alternate timelines/many worlds, and the casual loop - meaning everything that happens and will happen in the future has happened before.

My question is, temporarily disregarding any 'flaws' and 'continuity for the sake of it points' on the scriptwriter's part, can we definitively conclude that the Terminator is one or the either?

Evidence for Alternate Theory:
-JD changed from 1997 to 2004
-War does not end in 2029, but continues onward
-Los Angeles spared as it was no longer directly nuked
-"No fate but what we make"
-The assassination of JC's Lieutenants (Jose the drive-thru guy) in T3
-Cyberdine advances their research from T1's hand and chip
-T3's T-850 warning John that "we'll meet again" in reference to the T-850 killing him because of the sentimental attachment from his childhood. So will he forget this advice and be emotionally compromised after explicitly being told he would be?
-Sarah Connor chronicles? Does this actually count as canon?
-From T2 to T3, more advance Terminators are sent back in time to terminate a Connor after T1's failed.
-Assuming Kyle Reese remembered Marcus, he would have told Sarah in T1 about hyrids, no? She, in turn would mention them on the tapes in TS.


Evidence for Casual Loop:
-JC's rant in TS that no Kyle Reese means no John Connor
-T3's "JD is inevitable" (even though is was delayed)
-JC's scar (this is what I meant by disregarding 'continuity for the sake of it points'. Some may say that F&B, and McG just put it there because fans expect it to be there. Its there for continuity's sake.)
-Cyberdine only has their research from T1's hand and chip
-Skynet may have known everything about Kyle Reese from computer records left by the police station that had Kyle Reese in T1, T2, and T-X's interaction in T3.
-No indication that TS Kyle Reese meets up with T1 Kyle Reese in the past.


*Before I get point by point rebuttals on the Alternate Theory, I realize the list is not necessarily factual and disputed. Kyle may have lied to Sarah in T1 or been misinformed, the war never ended in 2029 originally, just changed drastically, and LA may not have been nuked originally.
But since we are all Terminator fans, it would be good is some of use could weed through the four movies and find a somewhat satisfactory answer once and for all. Assuming that can be done.


Any more points for either theory?

I must point this out:

J.C.'s rant about No Kyle Reese equals no John Connor is once again an Assumption.

No one knows how it works.

Moved to Timelines section. Please post in correct forum.

It can't be done. The nature of the timeline has been hotly debated since the release of T2. The controversial nature of T3 further divided people, as some don't legitimize the work of Ferris & Brancato, while others do. And not only is Terminator Salvation based on a Ferris & Brancato script, but it seems to be swinging back toward the causal loop idea that T3 moved away from. So there's plenty to dispute even among people who accept both T3 and Terminator Salvation as legitimate chapters of the story. And the people who don't accept T3 and/or Terminator Salvation certainly aren't going to be swayed by arguments that rely on events from those movies. And there's even more complication, since there aren't just two timeline theories. I can think of at least four timeline theories off the top of my head, and I think there are more than that.

All the rationalizations behind each time theory have been posted many times in other timeline discussions, although I suppose consolidating them in one place isn't a terrible idea.

Well, since John Connor is in existence, does it really matter if he sends Kyle back to the past?

It's not like he would disappear in thin air. He with the Resistance could still defeat Skynet even if that mean's changing the past with the T-800 killing Sarah.

If he has the ability to make a different choice, that points at either a revisable timeline or multiple timelines. In a multiple timelines scenario, indeed it wouldn't matter if John sent Kyle, because it's an entirely different timeline getting screwed, not his own. But in a revisable timeline scenario, not sending Kyle would undo the entire timeline, not just John's existence. A Terminator running around unopposed in 1984 means that it would very likely succeed in its mission. That means John Connor is never born, Kyle Reese is effectively deleted from ever existing, and Sarah Connor is brutally murdered. This may very well result in a happy ending for humanity in general--unless Skynet had other plans for the Terminator beyond simply killing a few Sarahs...