The Terminator Files Forum

The take over of the TDE was always mentioned as being either part of or during the time when Skynets defense grid was smashed. That is the end game. As for Vietnam, there were areas where the US was forbidden to go, but in South Vietnam the US could go and control any territory it wanted to, when it wanted to. Could the Viet Cong make them pay for it? Sure. Would the effort cost the Viet Cong most of their forces in the area? Yes. The Tet Offensive is historically pointed to as an end game launched to early and an event that would have cost that should have cost them everything.

How many times must it be pointed out that the defense grid being smashed is NOT the end game?


People assume that is the case.

However there are reasons other than Monetary ones, or time ones, scheduling ones etc. etc. that the future war was NEVER ended in T1 or T2. And that is quite simply Cameron never wanted there to be a definitive ending good or bad for either side.

The story is after all a cautionary tale of us putting our entire Military under the whims of a Supercomputer.

Regardless of whether or not it became self aware isn't the point. The point is we were so lazy that we put our livelihood under the power of the most powerful and incomprehensible machine ever made.

Having a definitive ending. would betray the entire story.

And having a "happy" ending would IMHO really fly in the face of all logic and reason...but that's just me.

Excuse me as I'm on my cell phone. But why can't Serrano Point be in North Vietnam as opposed to the South.

Ace

That does assume that Skynet has a huge resource advantage. Skynet could probably blow up the Serrano Point nuclear power plant with artillery or a couple of missile but it may actually need it. If Skynet wants to take it back then it will want to inflict minimal damage.

It's the same thing with factories and launch pads. Skynet may not actually have the resources to build decoys. Also, if the Resistance lets Skynet complete enough long range weapons, they'll be dead anyway. They can do nothing against a satellite weapon that's already in space but they can do something about it before it's launched. As for how the Resistance can take down highly fortified targets, they won't use a massive invasion. They'll probably slowly weaken them by attacking peripheral infrastructure like power, mines, refineries, resource transports, etc. If they get lucky, they might be able to recover some artilleries and missiles of their own and use it on Skynet.

Skynet is not being hamstringed by politicians. It can go wherever it wants. As for orbital weapon systems, we've never seen any reference to them. As has been pointed out before here, you've got millions of metric tons of dust in the air. Orbital weapons and high altitude attack aircraft could be totally ineffective at night. Resistance hides during the day and fights during the night when Skynet can't use these types of advanced recon systems. It explains why humans who have relatively primitive equipment like to fight at night, and why Skynet uses a low altitude VTOL as a hunter killer, instead of a bomber blasting humans from 60,000 feet as we do now.

Numbers. We know there are a few million humans alive, probably a good amount of them involved in some fashion. Skynet has to have a significant amount of units so that the mass of humanity can't overrun it too early. The trick with fighting that kind of war is this. Your fighting an enemy that will win if it wants to. Take note of what has been going on in Afghanistan lately. The Taliban figured out that it takes 20 minutes for Coalition aircraft to respond. So they've got their time limit on their ambushes. 20 minutes, and it's time to or they're going to be painting rocks quite literally. The Resistance has to do something very similiar. Skynet can't cover everything with enough forces to slaughter a sizable Resistance force. It would have to have power mobile units which can respond fast and slaughter said Resistance forces. If you sit on a target and raid their logistical support, the enemy reinforces it. So then you have to get your cells involved. You have to expend troops on other targets to draw more attention there if you have to first weaken the units there. Either to draw away forces from your real target, or just to weaken it without drawing more forces ontop of you. The problem is that a high priority target will never be weakened by Skynet to save a lesser facility. And you've got to consider the inherent communications problems with the Resistance spread out enough to do something like that. Satellite communications are out. Cell towers and the sort are likely to be targets. They've been able to triangulate radio communications since WW2. I don't even want to think of how fast a radio would bring HK's down on a Resistance bunker. Wires leave a trail that's easy to follow. You're probably looking at a chain of wired and IR communications systems, that are probably going to be out of commission half the time. Since Skynet is likely to have a unit hide in the are and wait for some tech to come fix it. A pretty primitive, unreliable and expendable communications network. Might even be using runners.

So my only logical conclusion to how humanity wins is this. During the night anything above a few thousand feet is useless. That's the humans leg up. They don't have to worry about orbital weapons or bombers. So they spread out over Skynet's spear of influence and start taking little bites. An HK here and there. A factory every so often when Conner can muster enough of Tech Comm's forces and draw enough attention away from that target. Hit the easiest targets. Bleed Skynet faster than it can recover and when you've taken enough away you transition from unconventional to conventional. When you do that in guerrilla warfare it's all or nothing in a war of extermination like this.

Sorry I couldn't elaborate more but I was on my cell phone it would have taken too long. But what I meant was more along the lines of they controlled the North and we controlled the South.

Whose to say that Serrano Point isn't in a position which is highly advantageous for the Resistance and Skynet could simply never amass enough forces to hold or to retake it. Too many pockets of Resistance forces in the way.

Sure they can send H/Ks to strafe all they want but they couldn't get any endos through to secure it. Perhaps it's deep within Resistance territory.

I know I'm probably focusing alot on Serrano Point but I think it can be used as a microcosm for how the Resistance fights in the future.

I believe I recall them saying that the power plant is located in Avila Beach. Which is nearly 200 miles away from Los Angeles and based upon the newest clip from tomorrow's episode we know the Resistance has access to naval vessels. They could have retaking it because of those two factors.

All I'm saying is that it's not unusual for the Resistance to hold key locations instead of fighting a "pure" guerrilla war. Eventually you have to move from Guerrilla warfare to Conventional warfare if you plan on winning.

As you yourself stating the Tet Offensive was thought to be that turning point for the Viet Cong. But we all know that it was too early in the war. Bad Strategy.

EDIT: Ohh by the way I really like your reasoning for why Skynet doesn't use high altitude bombers. Well thought out. I like it. Radar guided munitions would certainly have a hard time locking on because of the weather conditions caused by Judgement Day. Dust and Oil...

Ace

Considering how there was almost no nuclear winter, the dust in the air thing doesn't seem to be too big of a problem. Also, today's satellites are effective in some very bad weather conditions. Skynet could no doubt improve upon our technology.

Plus like you said, Skynet is not hamstrung by politicians so it doesn't have to follow the treaties that's prevents the development of orbital weapons, especially satellite nukes.

Also, we're not just talking about the Resistance. There are other survivors in other parts of the world who do not hide in underground bunker. Plus any agriculture will be exposed and vulnerable to attack.



I think the Resistance might have to rely on even more primitive forms of communication like trained animals.

The problem is that Skynet may not actually have the resources to do all the things the U.S. military can do. Skynet may have actually had to make a choice between building HK's or building strategic bombers. The United States has never fought a war in modern times where the enemy was at our doorstep. That could be a reason why Skynet doesn't have our level of air support or satellite based weapons. The Resistance was getting uncomfortably close and Skynet had to reallocate energy and resources from the construction of missiles, bombers, and satellites to the construction of Terminators and HK's.



If Skynet has a significant amount of air power then how will the Resistance protect their food supplies? If Skynet can't target humans, it'll destroy the things they need to survive.

I always assumed food would be grown underground under a UV light or something similar. Won't be pretty or all that tasty but it'll get the job done. Not exactly my area of expertise, but I'd assume it could be done with a supply of bulbs and access to a water supply.

As for weather effecting high altitude aircraft and satellites. Laser designation systems are very vulnerable to even cloud cover. Thermal imaging is not. GPS guided weapons are not. About the only thing that's going to hamper sophisticated satellites is a lot of dust in the air or debris in orbit. However, if something doesn't stop Skynet from putting those types of weapons into service, the Resistance is doomed. They'll be crushed before they can even launch an offensive. And if Skynet can't even adequately defend an important launch site, then it's weak enough that the Resistance could of massed and destroyed it pretty early on.

Ok, here's a thought on a way of preventing satellite weaponry. Lets say when the nuclear war kicked off, the first thing nations like the US and Russia went about was blowing their enemies, and enemies allies satellites out of the sky. You've got space garbage galore in the way of any new platform you send up. What's the orbital decay rate on something like that? Maybe 10 years at the upper end. Could be longer on satellites in high orbit. But I'm guessing of the time it took Mir to come down. Debris is considerably lighter, the explosion could have forced it into a higher orbit.

I think TSCC has undersold SKynet a bit. We're led to believe it had enough forces to be on the verge of exterminating humanity. Takes a massive force to police and capture that many survivors. And we're also led to believe that Skynet dominates the surface without question. We see the Resistance winning small victories in T1. An HK here and there. What do they do after that? Run like hell, because they know what's coming down on them. I still think the assault in T2 is part of the end game scenario.

Power plants would generate a detectable amount of heat. Diversion of water streams for agricultural use is also detectable. Construction of underground facilities is also detectable.



Humans have to worry about things other than Skynet, disease, famine, water, etc. It'll take time for the Resistance to gather enough forces to fight Skynet. All Skynet has to worry about is the eradication of the human race. Skynet's infrastructure will be defended but it is not going to expect to be attacked by an organized force.



Development of ASATs pretty much stopped after the Cold War. There really aren't that many ASATs today. The ones that exist probably aren't even that effective since they've barely been tested.



Most survivors have no way of defending themselves. The Resistance can actually, well, resist. Most people are still too worried about just trying to survive. Skynet's war machines really aren't designed to fight against enemies that can effectively fight back. Look at the HK, it's really not a great war machine. Just look at how tall it is, that makes it very easy to target. An M-1 Abrams can probably kick the crap out of dozens of HK's. The HK has a great field of vision, it is designed to effectively track down humans, especially in ruined cities, but it is not designed to face significant resistance.

I’m sorry to barge in on the discussion in the middle and without reading all the preceding posts, but I wanted to raise an issue of the best possible tactics for Skynet. You can think of all the fancy and advanced weaponry like orbital ray guns, but the truth is that in every conflict the best tactics is to find a weapon that’s as unsophisticated and easy to mass produce as possible. Having something that can be deployed to a battlefield and affect the enemy without affecting your own troops is a dream come true. That’s why I say that biological and chemical warfare is the way for Skynet to go. You can spread all kinds of viruses around the world without the fear of it turning against you and your own army. The same goes with all kinds of airborne toxins. Using the same amount of resources and time wasted on creating orbital weapons, or even H/K’s to disperse weaponised viruses would end the war in no time.

Chemical and biological weapons are very effective on highly concentrated populations. The problem with the post Judgment Day world is that the human population will be very dispersed. Without the kind of transportation infrastructure we have today, it will be very hard to spread bio engineered diseases. Plus the fact that humans haven't succumb to natural diseases suggests that they already have the tools to fight off chemical and biological weapons.

But that's the very beauty of biological warfare - it doesn't need a dispersal systems other than people themselves. What I would do is catch some fighters, infect them with a lethal virus that has a long incubation period and then let them "escape". They would spread it from person to person, bunker to bunker, infecting countless others before even realising that something is wrong. Other way to disperse a virus would be to have an infiltrator cary some of it into a bunker, releasing it and then spreading fear causing people to evacuate to other bunkers carying the plague with them. Even today it's hard or close to impossible to find a cure for some viruses. I suppose it wouldn't be any easier in battle conditions with many virologists dead and no real labs to speak of.

The only reason it's not in use today is because it can always backfire and spread uncontrolably. Skynet doesn't have to worry about that.

They have no cars or planes, how can they spread viruses fast enough? By the time an infected person gets to a settlement, they could already be showing symptoms, or dead.

How many settlements would realistically be infected by that method. I wonder if survivors of Judgement Day move around alot. Do they move from settlement to settlement or do they mostly stay in one location?

Certainly in todays environment humans have the ability to move around alot. But in post Judgement Day world where moving between different cities or new settlements is risking your life. I'm not sure how well that delivery method would work.

Ace

Ok, so let's have aerial H/K's spray it like crops are sprayed today or have bugs/rats as carriers. I'm not saying it's an overnight solution, but it's much easier, faster and much deadlier than building orbital weaponry with nothing really to shoot it at. With viruses you don't need precision - disperse it in the vacinity of a suspected resistance location and let nature do the rest.

And again - this is a WMD that affects only the enemy and can't do any damage to Skynet.